This tale of the Grimmsʼ collection was contributed (in a Low German dialect) by Philipp Otto Runge. His main profession was painting, and he designed a color model using a sphere.[1]
His interest in colors certainly left a trace in the elaboration how the sea and the sky are colored and change their colors.
Runge contributed another tale, “Von dem Machandelboom” ‘Of / about the juniper tree’. Both tales were held in high regard by the Grimms. They saw some traits as typical or classical for the genre, e.g. the repetitions, parallelisms with rising tension.
The article nearly equivocates “Rather Useless” and “unambiguously the worst”. Python3 seems more coherent to me than the article's argument:
1. Python3 plainly distinguishes between a string and a sequence of bytes. The function `len`, as a built-in, gives the most straightforward count: for any set or sequence of items, it counts the number of these items.
2. For a sequence of bytes, it counts the number of bytes. Taking this face-palming half-pale male hodgepodge and encoding it according to UTF-8, we get 17 bytes. Thus `len("\U0001F926\U0001F3FC\u200D\u2642\uFE0F".encode(encoding = "utf-8")) == 17`.
3. After bytes, the most basic entities are Unicode code points. A Python3 string is a sequence of Unicode code points. So for a Python3 string, `len` should give the number of Unicode code points. Thus `len("\U0001F926\U0001F3FC\u200D\u2642\uFE0F") == 5`.
Anything more is and should be beyond the purview of the simple built-in `len`:
4. Grapheme clusters are complicated and nearly as arbitrary as code points, hence there are “legacy grapheme clusters” – the grapheme clusters of older Unicode versions, because they changed – and “tailored grapheme clusters”, which may be needed “for specific locales and other customizations”, and of course the default “extended grapheme clusters”, which are only “a best-effort approximation” to “what a typical user might think of as a “character”.” Cf. https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29
Of course, there are very few use cases for knowing the number of code points, but are there really much more for the number (NB: the number) of grapheme clusters?
5. The space a sequence of code points will occupy on the screen: certainly useful but at least dependent on the typeface that will be used for rendering and hence certainly beyond the purview of a simple function.
I can actually fit that within HN's 80 char limit without having to drop the "(2019)" bit at the end, so let's give it a try and see what happens... thanks!
No, the pressing issue of the Willy-Nicky telegrams was that Russia had mobilised her troops against Germany. Speaking about the Hague conference while setting troops in motion is hypocritical: you should wait out lengthy proceedings while we are invading your country. In the telegrams, William II tried to convince Nicholas II to stop the mobilisation. But Sergey Sazonov shortly thereafter made Nicholas II restart and escalate the mobilisation. At that point, a major war was inevitable.
Regarding the alphabetical order, I think one of the oldest alphabetically organized dictonaries extant is ‘Alphabetical collection of all words’ by Hesýchios¹. In his preface (written as a letter to a friend named Eulogios), Hesychios writes that quite a few other people in earlier times have made alphabetical collections of words, but always only for a certain subset, e.g. all homeric words, all words found in the tragedies or in the comedies etc. After them a certain Diogenianós was the first (according to Hesychios) to make an alphabetical collection of all words.²
The names of the older lexicographers Hesychios mentions are: Appíon (Ἀππίων – or Ἀπίων?)³, Apollónios son of Archibios (Ἀπολλώνιος ὁ τοῦ Ἀρχιβίου)⁴, Théon (Θέων)⁵, Dídymos (Δίδυμος)⁶.
² https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistula_ad_Eulogium – “κατὰ στοιχεῖον” is the phrase meaning ‘by / according to the letter’, understood as ‘alphabetical(ly)’; “καθʼ ἕκαστον στοιχεῖον” ‘by / according to every letter’.
On the other hand, the point at issue was not turgidness or unnaturalness but (emphasis mine):
“Likewise, do you translate it into contemporary English or archaic one? Old texts are sometimes intentionally translated into archaic language, so that you feel like reading something old. But, when they created it originally, they used their own contemporary language and made it sound pleasant to themselves. So, do you pick old words or new words for the same thing?”
and GPʼs point is salient and correct; to be perhaps more clear: the homeric style was already archaic when the Odyssey was composed. Moreover, it was probably intentionally and somewhat artificially made archaic, e.g. using the old inflectional suffix /‑φι(ν)/ also in the singular and not only in the plural, where it was solely used originally.
> the homeric style was already archaic when the Odyssey was composed.
No, his point was that it is archaic compared to what we call classical Greek. That is absolutely not the same as being archaic when composed. Homer is second oldest written poem. It comes from oral tradition, meaning people saying it to each other out of memory. It not using exactly same language as newer texts is to be expected.
Homer was not written to be read as a book, it was meant to be remembered and listened to. It has structure that facilitates remembering. Both turgidness and unnaturalness goes massively against this very practical need/goal (and both are translators choices).
An entirely different text that was rewritten from even older text is not an argument for anything Homer. Also, maybe as tangent, Homer is not just fights with monsters people seem to assume. That is just minor part of it. It has very long passages with very low key events where not much is happening or where characters scheme/negotiate or where only funny stuff happens. I swear to god Odysseus goes to underworld purely so that they could somehow get your favorite dead characters in. It has fun structure story wise and that did not happened by random.
The point at issue I was referring to was yours, not his. I had the passage in mind I quoted; to quote and refer more concisely and precisely perhaps:
“But, when they created it [= Iliad or Odyssey] originally, they used their own contemporary language”
No, “they” did not. The Iliadʼs and Odysseyʼs language was nobodyʼs contemporary language. Not for the 8th century, not for the 5th. It has too many archaisms and dialectisms (aiolisms). (Note: Some forms seen as aiolisms in earlier research are understood as archaisms now.)
Yes, people enjoyed it, very much. But people can enjoy something that sounds archaic and unusual, not like contemporary speech. Particularly, when it is an epic poem about older times. That is quite common. I for one enjoy that, too, YMMV.
Your point “it was meant to be remembered and listened to” is difficult to unpack: Yes, this is true both for the time before and after a Homeric poem was composed as the whole that we know, but true in a very different manner. In any case, it is no evidence against archaisms (and aiolisms).
So:
“do you translate it into contemporary English or archaic one”
Archaic would be a little bit more authentic than contemporary.
Contemporary may be a better fit for many readers today – perhaps the ease of access is paramount when the translation competes with infinitely more permanently accessible information and entertainment than there was in the 8th century BC.
On this point, I will rather believe people who did studied the issue who literally said that rather then to your claims. You enjoying archaic text has zero to do with how Homer was composed. Also, it was composed to be passed orally and only later on written.
> perhaps the ease of access is paramount when the translation competes with infinitely more permanently accessible information and entertainment than there was in the 8th century BC.
This is kind of weird argument given there older translations you don't take issue with can be quite expansive over original. Given that this particular translation has the same length as original.
What I said is the position held by historical linguists focussing on early Ancient Greek, e.g. Strunk (who wrote the paper about aeolisms that are archaisms), Leumann, Meier-Brügger (Griech. Sprachw. II W 201.2 quoting Leumann “Versetzung in eine vom Alltag ferne Atmosphäre”, II F 218.3), Wachter (who wrote the grammar accompanying the latest comprehensive Greek Ilias edition), e.g. “the epic poet used non-everyday forms”, “it is true that from the point of view of its formation, ἤμαρ is more archaic than ἡμέρη, but there is no doubt that ἡμέρη, which is attested in the whole of post-Homeric Greek, particularly in Ionic-Attic, was the current form at Homer's time.” etc.
No linguist studying early Ancient Greek thinks that the poet(s) of the Iliad and Odyssey “used their own contemporary language”.
“You enjoying archaic text has zero to do with” … indeed, so letʼs not miss the argument I actually made: one of the two reasons for your view seems to be that Homer “made it sound pleasant”, “people […] liked it”. I just wanted to convey that it is a non sequitur to induce a non-archaic, contemporary style from that, particularly in the case of an epic poem about older times. This genre usually has an archaic, non-everyday style. (Two links I had included there to parallel examples were scrubbed.)
If herein you did not mean to give a reason for your view, I am sorry for the detour.
The then remaining reason for your view seems to be that the Homeric poems were “composed to be passed orally and only later on written”. But this is also no evidence for a non-archaic, contemporary language because highly archaic poems can be transmitted orally, even for centuries (cf. the Vedic hymns).
Your wording can only mean the history of the Homeric poems, but to take a look at their prehistory: the Oral-Formulaic Theory (Parry, Lord) also does not speak against archaic, non-everyday language, on the contrary, it was developed inter alia to explain the most archaic forms in the Homeric poems.
“older translations […] can be quite expansive over original. Given that this particular translation has the same length as original.” Sorry, but this is not correct, you wrote yourself “the translation is shorter then some other translations”. Emily Wilsonʼs translation has the same number of verses, as metric translations usually have, but uses the iambic pentameter instead of the considerably longer dactylic hexameter. Note that I donʼt criticize her decision. (On the contrary, I sympathize with the view that the English iambic verse may correspond a little bit better to the Greek dactylic verse. I know, in the end, Germanic metrical language and Ancient Greek metrical language are very different anyway.)
“This is kind of weird argument given there older translations you don't take issue with” … Look, I havenʼt made and donʼt intend to make any comment about any translation at all. In particular, I donʼt take issue with Wilsonʼs translation. I just wanted to corroborate the little objection made by DiscourseFan against a tiny, understandable and innocuous misconception. I deplore that the argument has rather deteriorated since then, will not engage further and wish you well.
Ah, I guess that makes sense. “rust” comes from the PIE word for red via German, and “ruby” comes from the same PIE word for red via Latin. So it makes sense that the Latin word for “rust” would be similar to the Latin word for “red” :)
I, conversely, lack the knowledge to quite get the allusion to a Hallmark card or a Thomas Kincaid painting.
I guess that Kincaid paintings are considered subpar by connoisseurs. That wouldnʼt be the thing with Morgenstern. He is popular, but not that popular, and was sufficiently unconventional at his time to be seen as a genuine creative artist.
That is a comparison in terms of connoisseurship (or snobbery). If I had to make a comparison in terms of how the workʼs nature, Iʼd say that the shorter poems are like Roger Price droodles.
Slightly alternative explanation for West Germany, combining what others have said:
- First stage: The allies under US leadership were running the country anyway, they did it well and there was sufficient cooperation by Germans, for whom the Germany that was defeated represented an entity utterly discredited on account of the most horrible crimes against humanity.
- Second stage: The feeling “the Americans are actually on our side – defeating us they have liberated us and then helped us to a new state in which we can live better than ever before, plus they are protecting us from the USSR” became more or less mainstream.
(The experience in East Germany was completely different of course.)
So I think the most important factor was that American victory and American predominance were associated with liberation and freedom.
His interest in colors certainly left a trace in the elaboration how the sea and the sky are colored and change their colors.
Runge contributed another tale, “Von dem Machandelboom” ‘Of / about the juniper tree’. Both tales were held in high regard by the Grimms. They saw some traits as typical or classical for the genre, e.g. the repetitions, parallelisms with rising tension.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Otto_Runge#Runge_and_c... –