This is a great example of one of the tactics CCP deploys. Whataboutism.
As shown to be actually happening (does not give facts showing it happens on HN but I personally think it's reasonable, or at least not unfathomable) by this recent HN top thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29654137
> This is a great example of one of the tactics CCP deploys. Whataboutism.
And comments like this are a great example of propaganda methods employed by nation states since even before WWI [0];
"All who doubt our propaganda are traitors."
It's also nothing really new for me, I got plenty of similar insults and accusations thrown at me, mostly by Americans, when I opposed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. I was called a "terrorist supporter" and "freedom hater" for not just running after blatant lies.
Wasn't alone with that, large parts of the world felt similar, literally the largest protest event in human history [0]
In that context this whole situation feels like quite the dejavu; It's the same Five Eyes countries leading the charge, it's the same organization peddling lies. Yet bringing up these similarities shall be considered "propaganda" because "Bringing up Iraq is something that only Russian/Chinese trolls do!".
It is not a personal attack. It is an attack on the argument. Anytime somebody says something negative about the CCP people always bring up the west. It is not relevant to the conversation and is a common tactic of anti west / pro CCP people to deflect.
Whataboutism is very relevant. If A is accusing B of eating babies, then why shouldn't B - or anyone, for that matter - not point out that A is also eating babies and raping old ladies?
What you call "pro CCP people" is just people outside the sphere of influence of A. In your environment it's been normalized to hate on China for any reason. You're likely being brainwashed 24/7 or a paid troll.
Whataboutism has nothing to do with morality. If country A does something bad it doesn't mean that it is not actually bad because country B did something similar.
Do you find it interesting that anytime there is a thread about the US doing something bad that nobody jumps in and say well China did the same thing? It only goes one way. That is why I am calling it out.
The reason why it goes one way is because people who support the west know their side has done bad things. People who support China refuse to accept it.
You cannot accept any criticism of the CCP and somehow I am brainwashed? I understand the US and other western countries have done and continue to do bad things. I just don't bring it up when it is not related to the topic at hand.
You make some good points but I am not completely convinced you're arguing in good faith. Do you have any cases of "pro CCP" content reaching the front page here? Because the opposite happens multiple times a day. Context matters. Pointing out blatant hypocrisy has nothing to do with supporting whatever the current boogie man is.
I am not saying pro-CCP content is reaching the front page. All I am saying is pro China / anti-west comments are common in threads about China. In this very thread there are many comments basically saying the US and the rest of the western countries are no different than the CCP. This thread has nothing to do with the west other than Valve being a western company. I wouldn't mind a conversation about the companies in the west doing business in China or western countries restricting Chinese companies, but that is often times not what we are seeing.
Most of the posters on HN live in the west and likely consider the government of the country they live in to be better (morally) to the government of China. Seeing posts that are pro-western is to be expected for that reason. Like I said above, I am not saying there is a problem with pro CCP posts making the front page. If China does something good, I would have no issues with an article about it making the front page.
I would also note that posts that are critical of the west (especially US) do make it to the front page. In those posts at worst we see an acceptance that it happened and maybe some arguments that we should do more to try to fix the wrongs done. When we have a China post we see deflection and sometimes denial of human rights violations. When there was a post about the Uyghurs there were multiple commenters saying we can't trust the western intelligence agencies and news organizations. When is the last time you saw comments like that when it was against a western country?
People also don't generally comment on the amount of pro-US or pro-Europe comments in those threads. I don't think I've ever seen any accusations of Western astroturfing. Influencing the media, sure, but not being directly in the comments.
Also, the US is trying to maintain a moral high ground (real or perceived). They don't want to be associated with China. I don't think anyone would say "well China does it too!" but they would absolutely say "well the EU does it too!".
I do think China gets dinged for their misdeeds more than other nations do. I don't see nearly the anti-India sentiment, despite the similarities. India is perceived as a country that makes some missteps on their way to modernization, while China is perceived as a country that's rotten to the core and making intentionally terrible choices.
I don't support China. I wouldn't want to live there. I just think that we're either mentally over-prosecuting China, or that we're giving more democratic nations a pass on their misdeeds. India still has castes, and didn't they just have a series of internet blackouts to suppress dissidents? The whole thing with the farmers, though I could be misremembering. They're democratic though, so we're all pretty sure they'll find their way. No one seems to consider that perhaps China will find their way as well. Germany had Hitler 80 years ago and they're doing fine today. Perhaps in 80 years China will be more free as well.
You gave yourself the answer at the end right there: Germany got rid of Hitler only after an incredibly bloody world war and having its cities turned into 30 feet of rubble.
IMO the comparison to India is not fair. India is not doing the same aggressive international moves like China does. And the internal problems can be slowly resolved democratically. There is no democracy in China, they won't solve their problems that way.
>People also don't generally comment on the amount of pro-US or pro-Europe comments in those threads.
People don't tend to bring up the west in a good way in the thread unless other posters first bring up that the west does / has done the same thing. I think saying the west is better after somebody says the west is equal to China is just countering the argument.
>Also, the US is trying to maintain a moral high ground (real or perceived). They don't want to be associated with China. I don't think anyone would say "well China does it too!"
I agree.
>but they would absolutely say "well the EU does it too!".
This does happen sometimes, but not as frequently as it appears to happen in China posts. When it does happen, there are usually comments saying how much better the EU is for privacy or whatever the topic is and so it tends to be a retort of those comments.
>I do think China gets dinged for their misdeeds more than other nations do.
I would say that it is likely true China gets dinged more, but it is important to note that there are a lot of pro CCP people than many other countries. I don't see many people saying Afghanistan is a great country so there is less reason to call out the bad happening there.
China is also growing and is one of the biggest rivals to the west. If the west falters China could become the sole super power. There is more of a need to attempt to stop it than other countries. If China was just some random country, few people would care about their abuses because it wouldn't impact them.
>I don't see nearly the anti-India sentiment, despite the similarities. India is perceived as a country that makes some missteps on their way to modernization, while China is perceived as a country that's rotten to the core and making intentionally terrible choices.
> India still has castes, and didn't they just have a series of internet blackouts to suppress dissidents? The whole thing with the farmers, though I could be misremembering. They're democratic though, so we're all pretty sure they'll find their way.
India does have issues, but the issues do not appear to be as bad as China. China suppresses the internet for everybody, not just some people for example.
India is also more friendly to the west, so if they were to become a super power they would be less threatening to the west.
If China was more friendly to the west instead of threatening the west and attacking half the countries they share a border with they wouldn't have as much criticism. If you are going to be a bad country, keep it to yourself and most people won't bother you. North Korea is a good example. They are mostly ignored until they do or say something stupid then they are criticized.
>No one seems to consider that perhaps China will find their way as well. Germany had Hitler 80 years ago and they're doing fine today. Perhaps in 80 years China will be more free as well.
I think the problem is you need to criticize the country that is doing something bad. Should nobody have criticized Germany during Hitler's reign since maybe in 80 years they will be more free? It was bad when there were Nazi propagandists outside of Germany just like it is bad there are CCP propagandists now.
I'm not sure it's always whataboutism, it's many times just comparison.
People in the west don't tend to have an objective view of who they are and how their bevaior is seen by other people on this planet. Some of the western criticism of emerging powers is hilarious/ironic/rife with hypocrisy when viewed through a non-western lens.
When China does things in the way the US does them, while the US goes angrily; "No, no! When you do it it's evil!", then it's very relevant to point out how both are doing these things.
Particularly as the US's reach and impact is literally global; The free decentralized web does not exist anymore, by now it's not even a handful of US corporations who control the majority of web traffic [0], so the DoDBots are working with a home advantage that's pretty much global.
It's gotten to a point where even established mainstream media are using US social media [1] as their "sources", rarely ever following up on the actual person behind the account.
And the US does this in cooperation with their Five Eyes partners [2], so in addition to global reach and home advantage, they even have several teams on the same side playing the game.
It's gotten so ever-present that the US had to change the Smith-Mund Act to make domestic government propaganda proper legal, just like it used to be in the USSR [3].
And that's exactly where a lot of these accusations against China come from. It's these outfits that flood social media with posts like "China transporting Uhyrus in trains, just like Nazi Germany!". It's these outfits that turn some "It's regulated in China" into "Omg it's banned and they gonna organ harvest you for breaking the rule!" FUD.
The very same outfits were behind Saddam's people shredder, and organizing fake witnesses for US hearings [4]. Creating a bunch of sock puppet accounts is just a regularly Monday morning for them.
