I think there's a bit of an idea now that you should be expressing yourself with your money, not expressing society's ideas. Around cars and watches, this creates a little bit of a "dead zone" for prestigious professionals.
For example, if you aren't showing up in a $200k Maserati, your car had better be under $50k (maybe $70k with inflation). Only posers who aren't really into cars but want to show off their wealth spend $120k on a car.
For watches, the same thing happens: if you're wearing a watch less than $50k, it had better be under $500. Otherwise you probably don't care much about watches.
Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual."
Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling..
For the very wealthy..
If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness.
So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintage vehicle even though it may be of reasonable price, the time & effort you took to acquire & maintain it is a signal of taste.
Otherwise you'd be better off signaling complete disinterest with a very vanilla middle of the road options.
On menswear I think to your example, you could say you'd be better off not wearing a suit than in wearing a $200 Men's Wearhouse suit. To that end, these days, the type of people you tend to see in suits are either security / front desk staff or very senior corporate executives. Those in the middle have enough labor negotiating power to not be required to wear a suit, but probably not the desire/wealth to spend $2k on a properly tailored suit.
Very senior/wealthy people can get away with whatever they want. It's why Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook (notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though).
If a senior executive wore a $200 suit to work, nobody would say a word.
Zuckerberg wears $800 tshirts amongst other carefully selected pieces of his wardrobe. He isn’t rummaging through a local Target for a basic tee and jeans. I think this is a good example of countersignal interpretation!
> Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook
Huh, custom tshirts and well fitting jeans counts as "looking like a total slob" now? Fwiw I'd rather work with / for someone that dresses like that over formal any day of the week.
Notice how that's all for show too. Relatedly, Japanese people often don't work harder than Americans, they simply stay at the office longer. I also prefer what lack of formal attire signals: in Japanese workplaces, the more senior, the more respect for their ideas, regardless of whether the idea is actually better. Formal attire legitimizes their seniority but I'd rather have a meritocratic system of vetting ideas, and informality signals that too.
Japanese suits/uniforms are often pretty cheap (and look that way) - thus the low end “recruit suit”. They are tailored, but the level of body-fitting they are would be actively unacceptable in the US. By which I mean, everyone would think you’re gay.
On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc.
> On the other hand, Japan is the home of expensive high end recreations of American casual clothes - look up Take Ivy, BEAMS, nice selvedge jeans, etc.
I remember some acquaintances running a decent side business buying and then selling vintage American clothes back in Japan (shipping or flying back).
When Japanese enthusiasts scoured American thrift stores for the last remaining stock of vintage American denim, it supposedly constituted the largest ever transfer of clothing from the USA to Japan, exceeding even the postwar used clothing charity drives.
But the point is everyone looks like they’re trying to conform to the dress code. Much better than America, where just when you think it’s hit bottom, people plumb the depths further. (Most recently, by way of hair, tattoos, earrings on men, etc.)
That you are a barista at Starbucks or someone with self image issues. On a more serious note such people appear to me as conformists. Everyone has tattoos today. They buy them like burgers at McDonalds. In the past you'd eaen them in navy, army or prison. It said something about the person - it doesn't say anything about you now. Except perhaps that you want to seen in certain way without living it. E.g. look like a rockstar without being one. Why take the risks of adventurous life you can just buy a tatoo with the money from your IT job. Just another form pf consumption. Of course all depends on tatoo, I'm talking about your typical tatooed dude from western country.
We shouldn't be. Barring dominance by some fundamentalist group, be it religious, cultural, or political, humans have had piercings and tattoos. I like that fact that it is no longer countercultural to adopt these basic human expressions.
Tattoos are frowned upon in most cultures in the world. It's not just "fundamentalists" (whatever that means). And who cares about "human expression?" If you need to "express" yourself, write a book or something where the rest of us don't have to look at it.
America would be a lot better if people thought less about how to “express” themselves, and more about how to keep the social environment around them tidy and orderly.
It's true, I'm expressing support for the Yakuza, and helping them tear down the social fabric of western society. That's been the left's plan all along.
>By which I mean, everyone would think you’re gay.
Is this really true, though? Plenty of straight dudes wear tight fitting clothing, especially if they work out.
Perhaps it's just a higher ratio of gay guys that work out vs straight guys that work out that's skewed your views.
Well, it's only in the context of the radical casualization of menswear since the mid-60s that jeans and a t-shirt can be seen as stylish. When men first started wearing this outfit, it was considered rebellious in part because it was so obviously inappropriate to wear in public. The t-shirt originated as a military undergarment and jeans as mining equipment.
If a sr exec wore a $200 suit to work, it would be noticed. Maybe in a warren buffet folksy sort of way. How they tell defense attorneys not to dress too flashy
I had a business associate point out once how my mont blanc watch didn't have its own movement.
Singapore is an interesting place in this regard. We had several young guys in our office who wore $10k plus watches while still living with their parents.
There is a chance he was trying to help you and not be condescending to you. I am not a watch person, but even I know that Mont Blanc, kind of like Beats Audio, is not really known for their fine craftsmanship in watches. They're more about marketing, like Beats.
Having plenty of experience in both the car and watch worlds, what you're saying is somewhat true but it's based on brands, models and exclusivity rather than the price (which is a derivative of those factors).
It's knowing which car or watch to buy, and also recognizing it on others, that acts as the signal.
This rings true to me. My hobbies aren't especially expensive, but in all of them there are certainly ways to spend money that would tell me that you don't "get it". "It" being what I find interesting about the hobby. Not that it's necessarily worse or that I want to pass judgment on it, just that the connection isn't there.
But I wonder, in cultures very different from mine, which we generally see as more status-competitive, is that also true? Is it a faux pas to buy an expensive gold chain over a "proper" one?
Not faux pas, but there are obviously "cool" items. Often it's because of some history, provenance, technology/construction, or some other story that bestows that notoriety and a few times it's just because the group collective considers it special.
Where is this place where showing up in a Porsche 911 outs you as a car dilettante because you didn't shell out an extra $90k for the Maserati? I think the status symbols there might be reversed.
This is the kind of thing people who see cars as appliances go 55 in the left lane in a Prius (or maybe if you're a homeowner you've traded up to a Tacoma) say.
People buying "100k+ rich man's toy" cars don't care about value for money the way you or I do.
Maseratis aren’t exotic cars though, that’s the thing. They’re mediocre luxury cars marketed as exotic cars. You can get a new Maserati for less than a new BMW M3. Not exactly exotic car territory.
That entirely depends on the models. People who only know brands aren't "car" people anyway, and price isn't a great comparison.
Modern Maserati's are great driving cars with Ferrari heritage (and engines) that do command more prestige than a typical M or AMG model, especially in the Trofeo versions.
Yeah, if you want a 911 and have a little more money to spend, then there are more expensive variants of the 911 that Porsche will be happy to sell you. And they’re generally very good cars. Would get a Carrera GT over a Maserati any time.
LOL, Carrera GT is in a different league (~$1.5mm). 911 is kind of like a Speedmaster, it's a classic, and even a basic one is "acceptable" for most car folks. The S, GTS, GT3, etc would be the more premium. Countersignalling might be to buy older versions, as most folks won't expect the prices, and they're "classics" (e.g. 993s, 964s).
I'm not a car person, but I think showing up in a 911 is okay, but showing up in a random Mercedes is not. Other commenters have pointed out that a Maserati is also not a great brand to be driving, despite the price.
> Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual."
There’s a running joke in my circle about the “dad professional class”. People who are older (40-60s) and go to the office in a remote-work-accepting world mostly because they seem to want to leave their family at home. They all dress like shit in ill-fitting clothes, but because they’re older than the “office casual” dress code, they tend to dress in overly professional button downs and slacks. The business attire that look out of place in tech next to a 25yo in a tee shirt. They don’t seem to know people don’t always take them seriously, and think “they’re not here to [change the world/be the best/rise in the ranks/etc], they’re here to avoid their wife and collect a salary”.
TLDR: stop telling people you try to avoid your family, and start tailoring your clothes, it’s honestly not expensive.
Or maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos, tee-shirted or not, think about their attire. They have seen the fashion wheel spin more than once, and are no longer compelled by it.
(Source: upper 60s, go into the office mostly because a) it's not far, b) my office setup is a bit better, c) I don't want to wake my wife with Zoom calls. I do have some tailored shirts but seldom wear them.)
> maybe by their 40s-60s they have lost all interest in what 25yos
Its not about the fashion, its about looking put together. Its signaling that you care. Of course, there's the article which says that people who made it can stop signaling, so maybe that's you.
Doreen dropping the knowledge. I just learned another fun Coco Chanel quote:
"Those who create are rare; those who cannot are numerous. Therefore, the latter are stronger."
Little known fact: before he was Pied Piper's cool attorney in Silicon Valley, but after his first job at a Superstore, Ron LaFlamme lived in NYC where he was told that he "wasn't thought about at all" by Don Draper. https://youtu.be/LlOSdRMSG_k
There are a lot of people who think signalling you care [about fashion, to be clear] is somehow essential, and that to not care about fashion is to show you don't care about life, or about yourself...
Sorry, no. There's nothing wrong with me for not putting effort into what aesthetic "signals" I'm sending, because there is no true signal. It's noise. If someone's unclean, that's one thing, because cleanliness matters to health. Fashion does not.
Arguments that fashion matters are all circular, which tells you something. (It matters because people think it matters, and is therefore worth taking seriously!)
If you want to look put together, put your body together first. Clothes are a cheap signal, one that many older people have given up caring about because clothes and appearance are less relevant at their age. And genuinely fit people look good in almost anything.
You can tailor your slacks and shirts too, and it's pretty cheap. It will make you look a lot better than what most people expect if you're the type to dress business casual. That is, if you care.
I’d be careful making assumptions about a group of people like you’ve done here. I’m not quite old enough to be in the “dad professional class”, but I’ve been around long enough to have worked with plenty of people who are. In my experience, the people who dress “like shit in ill-fitting [overly professional button downs and slacks]” have been dressing like that for at least the last 20 years, and that it was common (at least in IT/development) to dress like that.
Tech workers dressing casually at the office is only a (relevantly) recent phenomenon. Working from home, for a lot of people, is even more recent.
You’ve made a lot of assumptions, and I would consider that this group of people are just defaulting back to what they’re used to, rather than “avoid their wife and collect a salary”.
I don’t know where you work, what industry, or the demographics of who works there, but if “people [who work there] don’t always take them seriously”, and it’s based on older people dressing like older people, then there is a culture problem.
If people like that dressed like you, you'd probably be laughing at them even harder and sending around the Steve Buscemi "how do you do, fellow kids?" meme in the group chat.
> There’s a running joke in my circle about the “dad professional class”. People who are older (40-60s)
I fit this demographic.
> and go to the office in a remote-work-accepting world mostly because they seem to want to leave their family at home.
There’s some truth to this, though I’ve avoiding coming in. It’s not about escaping the family but just a change of scenery.
> They all dress like shit in ill-fitting clothes, but because they’re older than the “office casual” dress code, they tend to dress in overly professional button downs and slacks.
I have a reasonable taste in fashion, but my cost-conscious self doesn’t allow it.
Age also forces a more conservative style and colors; and it says I’m sacrificing for the kids.
> “The business attire that look out of place in tech next to a 25yo in a tee shirt.
Business attire is like a uniform. You don’t need to spend a lot to look presentable.
> They don’t seem to know people don’t always take them seriously,
Is this a bad thing?
> and think “they’re not here to [change the world/be the best/rise in the ranks/etc], they’re here to avoid their wife and collect a salary”.
Rise in the ranks?
There’s nothing wrong with working to live. You get my best for 8 to 9 hours.
We live in a world where “leadership” is valued, and everything else is devalued. For engineers, this is purgatory.
Like, it’s a huge mental and emotional burden and I’d gladly take a 1/3 paycut to be an IC; except nobody else really wants it.
I think the idea you should get your clothes tailored is just foreign to them. Uniqlo is the only brand that offers it in the US at mall clothes prices.
Youths are like that. He'll learn better over time, but by then a new gaggle of pretentious younglings will be making fun of him for not wearing fruit replicas on his head, or something similar.
For example, if you aren't showing up in a $200k Maserati, your car had better be under $50k (maybe $70k with inflation). Only posers who aren't really into cars but want to show off their wealth spend $120k on a car.
For watches, the same thing happens: if you're wearing a watch less than $50k, it had better be under $500. Otherwise you probably don't care much about watches.
Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual."