> I'd love if it Microsoft simply abandoned NT and threw their weight behind the Linux kernel
I don't understand why people keep repeating this wish, rather than the arguably better, more competitive option: open-source the NT and Windows codebase, prepare an 'OpenWindows' (nice pun there, really) release, and simultaneously support enterprise customers with paid support licences, like places like Red Hat currently do.
> Cygwin, msys2/git-bash are all fantastic but they are no replacement for the kind of development experience you get on Linux & MacOS.
I couldn't disagree more. As someone who comes from a mostly-Windows pedigree, UNIX is... pretty backwards, and I look upon any attempt to shoehorn UNIX-on-Windows with a fair bit of disapproval, even if I concede that their individual developers and maintainers have done a decent job. Visual Studio (not Code) is a massively superior development and debugging tool to anything that the Unix crowd have cooked up (gdb? perf? Tell me when you can get flame graphs in one click).
That's an interesting idea. Some thoughts come to mind:
- The relatively low revenue of Windows for Microsoft means that they have the potential opportunity of increasing Windows profitability by dropping the engineering costs associated with NT (though on the flipside, they'd acquire the engineering cost of developing Linux).
- Open sourcing NT would likely see a majority of it ported into Linux compatibility layers which would enable competitors (not that this is bad for us as consumers, it's just not good for business)
- Adopting the Linux kernel and writing a closed source NT compatibility layer, init system, and closed source desktop environment means that the "desktop" and Microsoft aspects of the OS could be retained as private IP - which is the part that they could charge for. I know I'd certainly pay for a Linux distribution that has a well made DE.
> UNIX is... pretty backwards,
I honestly agree. Many of the APIs show their age and, in the age of high level languages, it's frustrating to read C docs to understand function signatures/semantics. It's certainly not ergonomic - though that's not to say there isn't room to innovate here.
Ultimately, I value sameness. Aside from ergonomics, NT doesn't offer _more_ than POSIX and language bindings take care of the ergonomics issues with unix, so in many ways I'd argue that NT offers less.
> Visual Studio (not Code) is a massively superior development and debugging too [...] Tell me when you can get flame graphs in one click
Just because the tooling isn't as nice to use now doesn't mean that Microsoft couldn't make it better (and charge for that) if they adopted Linux. This isn't something entirely contingent on the kernel.
I don't see why everything has to be Linux (which I will continue to maintain has neither the better kernel- nor user-mode).
Windows and NT have their own strengths as detailed in the very article that this thread links to. When open-sourced they could develop entirely independently, and it is good to have reasonable competition. Porting NT and the Windows shell to the Linux kernel for porting's sake could easily take years, which is wasted time and effort on satisfying someone's not-invented-here syndrome. It will mean throwing away 30+ years of hardware and software backward compatibility just to satisfy an imperfect and impractical ideal.
For perspective: something like WINE still can't run many Office programs. The vast majority of its development in recent years has been focused on getting video games to work by porting Direct3D to Vulkan (which is comparatively straightforward because most GPUs have only a single device API that both graphics APIs expose, and also given the fact that both D3D and Vulkan shader code compile to SPIR-V). Office programs are the bread and butter of Windows users. The OpenOffice equivalents are barely shadows of MS Office. To be sure, they're admirable efforts, but that only gets the developers pats on the back.
I have a fever dream vision of a "distribution" of an open source NT running in text mode with a resurrected Interix. Service Control Manager instead of systemd, NTFS (with ACLs and compression and encryption!), the registry, compatibility with scads of hardware drivers. It would be so much fun!
I've kept meaning to look at ReactOS and put it off again and again. I felt Windows Server 2003 was "peak Windows" before Windows 7 so I'd imagine I'd probably like ReactOS.
Sun managed it with Solaris (before Oracle undid that work) - indeed they had to create a license which didn't cause problems with the third party components (the CDDL).
The license happened less about third party components (GPLv2 would have worked for that, too, even if it's less understood area), but because GPLv3 was late, Sun wanted patent clause in license, and AFAIK engineers rebelled against licensing that would have prevented BSDs (or other) from using the code.
(For those who still believe "CDDL was designed to be incompatible with GPL", the same issues show up when trying to mix GPLv2 and GPLv3 code if you can't relicense the former to v3)
I can imagine the effort of open source Windows would be prohibitive.
Having to go through every source file to ensure there is nothing to cause offense in there; there may be licensed things they'd have to remove; optionally make it buildable outside of their own environment...
Or there may be just plain embarrassing code in there they don't feel the need to let outsiders see, and they don't want to spend the time to check. But you can be sure a very small group of nerds will be waiting to go through it and shout about some crappy thing they found.
I'd venture that even more nerds would go through it and fix their specific problems.
It's always been quite clear that FOSS projects that have sufficient traction are the pinnicle of getting something polished. No matter how architecturally flawed or no matter how bad the design is: many eyes seem to make light work of all edge cases over time.
On the other hand, FOSS projects tend to lack the might of a large business to hit a particular business case or criticality, at least in the short term.
Open sourcing is probably impossible for the same reasons open sourcing Solaris was really difficult. The issues that were affecting solaris affect Windows at least two orders of magnitude harder.
It's the smart play, though they'd lose huge revenues from Servers that are locked in... but otherwise, Windows is a dying operating system, it's not the captive audience it once was as many people are moving to web-apps, games are slowly leaving the platform and it's hanging on mostly due to inertia. The user hostile moves are not helping to slow the decline either.
> Visual Studio (not Code) is a massively superior development and debugging tool to anything that the Unix crowd have cooked up (gdb? perf? Tell me when you can get flame graphs in one click).
Hard disagree on the development aspect of VS, which (last time I used it, in 2015) couldn't even keep up with my fairly slow typing speed.
The debugging tools are excellent, but they are certainly not any more excellent than those in Instruments on macOS (which is largely backed by DTrace).
VS2022 is actually pretty damn slick. I use it on the daily and it's much more stable than any previous version. It's still not as fast as a text editor (I _do_ miss Sublime's efficiency), but even going back to 2019 is extremely hard.
I didn’t compare it with a modern alternative. I compared its debugging tools of Instruments of the same vintage, and pointed it out that last time I tried VS it couldn’t keep up with basic typing.
> Visual Studio (not Code) is a massively superior development and debugging tool to anything that the Unix crowd have cooked up (gdb? perf?)
VS is dogshit full of bloat and a UI that takes a PhD to navigate. CLion and QTCreator embed gdb/lldb and do the debugging just fine. perf also gets you more system metrics than Visual Studio does; the click vs CLI workflow is mostly just workflow preference. But if you're going to do a UI, at least don't do it the way VS does.
I don't understand why people keep repeating this wish, rather than the arguably better, more competitive option: open-source the NT and Windows codebase, prepare an 'OpenWindows' (nice pun there, really) release, and simultaneously support enterprise customers with paid support licences, like places like Red Hat currently do.
> Cygwin, msys2/git-bash are all fantastic but they are no replacement for the kind of development experience you get on Linux & MacOS.
I couldn't disagree more. As someone who comes from a mostly-Windows pedigree, UNIX is... pretty backwards, and I look upon any attempt to shoehorn UNIX-on-Windows with a fair bit of disapproval, even if I concede that their individual developers and maintainers have done a decent job. Visual Studio (not Code) is a massively superior development and debugging tool to anything that the Unix crowd have cooked up (gdb? perf? Tell me when you can get flame graphs in one click).