I'm young enough for marriage to seem distant, and my parents are still married, yet more than half of the children I grew up with had divorced parents and I have several separated family members.
It's not uncommon for most of the families on a suburb block to be divorced, especially in certain areas (most of my affluent white friends had antagonistically divorced parents, mainly due to money)[1]. The U.S. still has a large problem with divorce (~50%), and especially with divorce among families with children.
Divorce is far too often considered "taboo", as stated in this article, which is quite a travesty because I've found discussion can provide great benefit to not only those already affected by it, but those contemplating long term relationships. We consider divorce a "failure" in modern society, and in my opinion that's very often not the case. Many times divorce can mean simply a resolution of irreconcilable differences. However the law, lack of openness and general societal pressure can turn even amicable splits ugly.
In the end I've found closure like the OP describes always the most helpful: realization that life continues to go on, and even things that you relate with the old relationship (in this case, technology) will still be there as they always were.
[1] I feel it's important to note that divorce rates are highly variable dependent upon ethnic groups and demographics
Just curious to know, as somebody from India. What are leading causes for divorce in the US? I used to hear that, alimony is one reason why many women would get married to somebody rich and then divorce them.
I can understand that divorces happen due to incompatibility reasons. But 50% is too high a number for that reason alone.
Also I've heard marriage rates itself in the west are quite low. Never understood the logic behind that.
If you ask me (married 23 years), it's because people get married for the wrong reasons. They get married because society expects them to get married, nobody tells them that spending a lot of time with another human being is really, really hard (in this modern world where both partners are equal partners with full rights), and when - not if - things go wrong, they think "the marriage" is falling apart. So it does.
My wife and I got married after 6 weeks of acquaintance, in order to get visas that would allow us to live in the same country so we could get to know each other better. The deal was, if it didn't work, it didn't work, and we'd go our separate ways.
But once you've made that commitment, and you realize this person is really somebody you like, a lot, and you'd have to research international law to figure out a divorce, then ... well, you learn to work through the most unbelievable and outrageous problems.
We have had very, very bad times. And we've had a lot of pretty damn good times. Every year, we don't get divorced.
There's nothing magical about marriage. There's most definitely nothing magical about love. You can love somebody passionately and that has nothing at all to do with marriage. Confusing these things is why people hurt themselves so often.
Just to add to this, which I agree with, I also think conflict resolution is huge.
You really gotta get that bad stuff out in the open, talk about it, yell about, whatever it takes. Don't be pissed off about something for weeks on end (even more than a day is too long). To keep a marriage strong, both partners have to learn to deal w/ each other's idiosyncrasies and communicate about perceived grievances, annoyances, and so on. Extreme stubbornness, selfishness, all these things are pretty much incompatible with a healthy marriage.
This is exactly it. I've only been married 4 years, so I'm only speaking with a little experience, but when the love, passion, lust, etc. disappears, what is left? In the end, commitment is all that keeps it together. We happen to both be committed, and both have good examples in our parents (neither divorced, which is rare). We now have children, which helps us keep the proper focus. In the end, keeping a marriage together has more to do with being able to put your personal interests aside for large chunks of time (not all the time, just sometimes). As you said, the bad times can be bad, but the good times can equally be good. If we weren't both equally committed, I can see how things can unravel. Sometimes the fault is with both parties, often it's because one person is not as committed. The key is to find someone that is equal in all that.
Let me ask a related and unpopular question: what purpose does marriage serve in today's world?
For people with religious convictions, I understand: your god(s) hate you if you have relationships not sanctioned by your religious authorities. I am specifically asking about secular people in the US and Europe, who choose to enter a contract with the government about their personal lives.
Is it taxes? It seems much easier to me to just make more money than to make "till death do us part" work.
For health insurance, domestic partnerships work closely enough. (This is a US-specific problem.)
It seems to me that most marriages occur because the wedding industry has done a phenomenal job of marketing itself. Many girls grow up dreaming about their weddings. Men, assuming that women want this, go along. With predictable results in the divorce rate.
Companionship and love have nothing to do with a piece of paper filed with the local government.
Contraception is, historically, a recent development. Without it, a man and a woman rather fond of each other tend to produce children; all involved, including society at large, have an interest in keeping those parents together - hence the institution of marriage. Strange how the obvious has been forgotten.
Very little. Even less with the acceptance and inevitable legality of same-sex marriage.
I cringe whenever it happens but this is one of those things the social right wing seems to be correct on. Marriage should be about giving legal protection to the relationship that best serves the raising of healthy children. How it gets twisted into a debate about equality I have never understood.
We should just abolish the institution altogether.
> Companionship and love have nothing to do with a piece of paper filed with the local government.
Commitment and accountability to the person how bears your children, or who supports you through medical school or your startup years, has everything to do with a piece of paper filed with the local government.
In Washington State, domestic partnerships do not exist unless you are over 65 or (until now) if you were gay and therefore inelegible to marry. To figure out what rights and benefits are available only to married people, you can probably go look at some of the groups arguing for the right to gay marriage - they usually have a list of what will be gained.
If you think that founding a start-up is tough, wait until you have children. Raising them (properly) is the toughest and most rewarding job that one can have...
Marriage is just a way that society found to keep both parties more committed into it.
Disclaimer: Not from the US, but married (~2 years~) and kid (~2 weeks~):
I don't like marriage, as an institution. I'm married, because I'm quite certain that I want to stay with this person, because of tax benefits and a clearly defined situation for offsprings (from 'parental rights' to banal things like 'last name of the little one').
Without that, I couldn't care less about marriage (yes, my wife knows that pov). I'm not religious, so all the reasons for marriage listed there don't apply. Looking at society I think that - depending on the country/region/culture, I guess - marriage lost its meaning.
You might disagree and think that marriage is still an important concept, but in that case I'd argue that divorce shouldn't be ~that easy~. That doesn't mix in my world. The _only_ value of marriage, subjective of course, is the binding vow to stay with someone, period. Reducing that to "Yeah, 'til death or .. something else" is really nonsense, in absolute terms.
I love my wife, but my signature & vow aren't better than a vow I presented her on a random beach in France, with no witnesses.
Ignoring my impression of the value of marriage: Lots of people around me (and my former self certainly as well) seem to be less tolerant. If it's more and more easy to find a new partner (the original article mentions finding people on craigslist..), why would you invest time and energy in this current relationship, that goes through a hard time? The incentive is lowered: You can find people easily (online, offline), society doesn't really care if you were married before in general (certainly not everywhere, but in the western countries I know that's the case) and getting a divorce is ~easy~ (although, potentially nasty/expensive/etc). Why should you work hard to overcome problems in a relationship where a lot of the initial giddy feeling stuff is gone (substituted with something just as good perhaps, if you're happy. But .. in times of crisis you'll probably forget about that)?
Let's get back to the question, shall we? In a word, in my expectation, the reason for a high rate of divorce is:
the reason for a high rate of divorce is: Lazyness
Do you feel the same could be said about non-marriage relationships that end? As someone who is married, I see absolutely no difference between getting divorced now and breaking up with a partner before getting married.
But that's kind of my point: What's in a marriage, if not 'stability' or the vow to keep it going? If you agree that this isn't the case anymore for large parts of the world, what's the value or meaning of being married?
Of course non-marriage relationships fail all the time and the very same impatient / lazy outlook on life might be part of the reason. I'm just arguing that marriage was meant to (in culture, religion) be different.
I don't think it needs to have any value or meaning.
What is the meaning in, say, receiving a diploma/degree? I've never once looked back and thought, boy, I'm sure glad I have that piece of paper. The education I received remains with or without it. The recognition means absolutely nothing. It is really just an excuse to celebrate something going on in your life.
- I'm just arguing that marriage was meant to (in culture, religion) be different.
There seems to be two schools on this matter:
1. It was once traditionally illegal for mixed-race couples to be together, and marriage provided a licence from the state to allow those relationships on a case-by-case basis.
2. Alternatively, women were once thought to be the inferior gender and were pressured to bend to the wishes of their husband, and the marriage license made that control legally binding to a single entity.
Neither are socially acceptable anymore, thus any historical usage of marriage has been lost.
> Disclaimer: Not from the US, but married (~2 years~) and kid (~2 weeks~):
You have more important things to be doing right now than hang out on HN. Take care of your baby, take care of your wife, and sleep when you have a moment off from those.
> Just curious to know, as somebody from India. What are leading causes for divorce in the US?
Divorce is a taboo in India. The blog post says it's taboo to talk about in US as well, but it's totally different from not even considering divorce as an option. People endure bad relationships as divorce isn't something on the table for most. Despite all the development, women still aren't empowered enough. Women who are at the receiving ends of an abusive relationship will have to muster a lot of courage to even think about divorce, and then life after divorce will be difficult for them everywhere except for reverse metropolitan ghettos.
As another commenter pointed out, no good marriage ever ended in a divorce(Louis CK).
Gold diggers(I would guess they constitute a very small %; people who attract gold diggers generally do pre-nups), ugly child custody and alimony battles, and high divorce rates are the price of empowerment. Just like people drawing Barack Obama with ape like features is the price of democracy and freedom.
I think in India the problem is that laws are either not used at all, or just abused. Take for example IPC 498a and Domestic violence act. The true victims don't come forward at all, because they fear once the case reaches the police station all chances of reconciliation are ruled out. There fore they try to resolve the situation with as much discussions amidst elders. At the same time, 498a is draconian law in the hands of gold diggers. In fact the supreme court has itself noted to the epic high levels dowry law misuse going on.
Actually dowry law is misused quite a lot in our country and is not a small percentage by any means. And is also contributing to loss in faith in the institute of marriage to a large extent.
Basically it's a culture shift. It used to be men would have goals and women would support them. Now both partners have goals and they often have to choose between their goals and staying together. It's sad when partners have to split but in order to pursue their dreams it is often necessary. Another cause is simply that people change, it would be sad if we stayed the same, hopefully partners can find a way to grow together but if their growth takes them in different directions they may split. A marriage is a partnership, it would be wonderful if they all could last forever but often they were wonderful, they end, and the fact that they ended does not diminish the good they brought to both partners.
Greed. Americans generally define themselves by those things they perceive they lack (bigger house on the bay, their neighbor's spouse, etc etc).
Then with the rise of feminism, marriage becomes some prison to be escaped with little consequences. Unhappy, divorced parents leads to children disaffected with marriage and the rate falls with each generation.
People are becoming more materialistic and don't respect each other as much nowadays. Getting divorced is my biggest nightmare, and I'm not even married yet (nor engaged). While this fear won't stop me, I just hope that I'll stay happily with the one I love until I pass away eventually.
I'm young enough for marriage to seem distant, and my parents are still married, yet more than half of the children I grew up with had divorced parents and I have several separated family members.
It's not uncommon for most of the families on a suburb block to be divorced, especially in certain areas (most of my affluent white friends had antagonistically divorced parents, mainly due to money)[1]. The U.S. still has a large problem with divorce (~50%), and especially with divorce among families with children.
Divorce is far too often considered "taboo", as stated in this article, which is quite a travesty because I've found discussion can provide great benefit to not only those already affected by it, but those contemplating long term relationships. We consider divorce a "failure" in modern society, and in my opinion that's very often not the case. Many times divorce can mean simply a resolution of irreconcilable differences. However the law, lack of openness and general societal pressure can turn even amicable splits ugly.
In the end I've found closure like the OP describes always the most helpful: realization that life continues to go on, and even things that you relate with the old relationship (in this case, technology) will still be there as they always were.
[1] I feel it's important to note that divorce rates are highly variable dependent upon ethnic groups and demographics