I consider it very different to using accounting tricks to make profits disappear out of the country entirely, based on bogus internal charging.

The point is that you have to define "where" the profit was made. In an international environment that's pretty close to insensible (especially since the naive interpretation of profit to the lay person is gross profit).

And I still think that morally there isn't a categorical difference between minimising tax by spending money and minimising tax by ... spending money.

Not in the case of a bricks n' mortar business like Starbucks it ain't!

"And I still think that morally there isn't a categorical difference between minimising tax by spending money and minimising tax by ... spending money."

And I don't see what 'by spending money' has to do with anything.

Well, two things. First: VAT is designed to capture tax from this exact scenario.

Secondly:

1. The beans are bought from Switzerland.

2. The sale is made in High Street.

Now, to calculate gross profit, deduct Cost of Goods Sold from the Sales.

But: COGS was established in Switzerland.

Sales in Britain.

If you calculate profit as if COGS was established in Britain, you beggar Switzerland.

If you calculate it the other way around, you beggar Britain.

Switzerland has more favourable tax rates. So Starbucks, completely legally, arrange their affairs so that the COGS is done in Switzerland. Otherwise they'd buy from British bean middlemen.

Why is it Switzerland's problem that Britain has the higher tax rates?

It comes down to this - Starbucks operate a chain of coffee shops in the UK. They report to their shareholders that their UK division is a profitable enterprise, they report to the HMRC that it's a loss-maker. Somewhere in between there is probably the truth, and it's that truth the UK should be taxing on.

Why should Starbuck, simply because it is a multinational, enjoy tax breaks that a local/national business does not get?

--edit-- I realise that that isn't a moral question for starbucks, but one for the res of us. The question for Starbucks is 'What is the limit of reasonable behaviour?' and many people consider they've gone far beyond that.

I know you think the limit of reasonable behaviour for a corporation is the same as the limit of the law, so I'll pose the same question to you I posed to someone else downthread -

If it's not (yet) illegal to dump industrial byproducts into the water supply in the country you're operating in, is it moral to do so?

You have to attempt to justify it. Other people will see if they agree with your justifications.

Most justifications are reasonable and the person is correct to make them.

Sometimes justifications shift from being acceptable to being unacceptable. (Free parking spaces for employees is now a taxable benefit in England.) There's a bit of a kerfuffle while people transition.

Sometimes foolish people will make justifications that strain credulity.

Sometimes unscrupulous people will invent justifications.

It feels that Amazon and Starbucks (and probably Google) are straining credulity with their weird systems.

They wouldn't do it if those were actually illegal systems of tax minimisation.

That you or I would like massively profitable companies to pay more tax in our respective countries is one matter. Whether they are obliged to do so by law is a different.

The question I'm raising is: if I am obliged by law to pay X, is it moral that I pay only and exactly X?

Starbucks needing to pay Starbucks so that they can use the Starbucks brand (and thus - co-incidentally we're told) syphoning off profit from Starbucks UK to Starbucks cupboard in tax haven is an example of something that might be legally correct but is morally wrong.

I think it's pretty clear that we disagree, so feel free to have the last word.

The intent of tax law is everywhere the same: maximise revenue. Full stop.

In the USA, the UK and Australia we live in a society of laws, not a society of personal judicial discretion. Judges give regard to the intent of the lawmakers insofar as it illuminates how to apply a piece of legislation. It is not their job to simply decide that something is "right" or "wrong" according to their personal views of what is a sensible policy setting for taxation.

The point is that if you take the view that minimising tax is wrong, you need to explain why. The logical contrapositive (or is it converse? I always get them mixed up) is that maximising the tax you pay is morally correct, which opens up an embarrassing slippery slope argument that even I, as a recovering libertard, am not keen to go a-whooshing down.

It is always important in discussion moral questions to distinguish between what is moral conduct and what are desirable outcomes. What humans do and what humans intend to come about are frequently very different, but we all have a habit of smooshing them together in discussions such as these.

I realise that I have tremendously muddied the waters by insisting on reverting to first principles, but well ... principles matter.

If I may create a false dichotomy: given the choice between a government of laws and a government with maximised revenue, I would prefer to live under a government of laws.

I don't care what the courts think. I agree with you - the law exists; judges interpret that law; these companies don't appear to be breaking any laws. My accusations of them not being moral isn't based in law, nor in them trying to reduce their tax bill.

I think it's fine for people to reduce their tax burden. I even think it's fine for people to employ lawyers to scour the laws and find vigorous ways to reduce their tax burdens.

But then there are tricks that are legal now, but which appear to flaunt the intent of the law, and which will get fixed at a later point.

And, in my opinion, sometimes these tricks go so far as to be dishonest. And that's the bit where morality comes in. Companies that reduce their tax bills are not immoral, unless they are telling borderline lies in order to do so.

When a UK company sells goods in the UK to UK citizens, making over £3bn per year in sales, and then say that their company is actually in Luxembourg and the UK business is just a delivery business to reduce their tax bill - well, that feels slimy. It might be legal.

Some behaviour is not illegal, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

The other thing about laws is that they are not fixed. They get refined over the years. And there are some grey areas until the law is tested by whoever enforces it.

A remarkably naive view of corporations.

My point being that from the perspective of pure greed, breaking tax laws is dumb. The IRS, HMRC, the ATO and their ilk all have amazing powers to obtain compliance from taxpayers.

But only up to the boundaries of the law. Which is why the smart thing to do is to ... work up to the boundaries of the law.

Corporations and governments are fundamentally the same thing - groups of people - and aiming to shrink the power of one by giving even greater power to the other is no solution at all.