Sorry. I was attempting to argue with a religion. My bad.
The basic premises cannot be questioned. The words of the sacred order must be followed to the letter. They must be swallowed whole without modification. They are to be held to be applicable to all problems, all contexts, forever, amen. That is except when they don't apply according to some mysterious unwritten set of rules held by the sacred order.
Gad. I can't count the times I have seen this crap since I started developing software back in the mid 1960'sd. It started with designing software using an IBM flow chart template. Each "method" had their very narrow range of applicability. None were the cure all or ultimate solution they were touted to be.
Automated testing has a place. The place is small, narrow, and limited. I seriously question that it can make up for lousy programmers and lousy code. Especially since they are also usually the programmers of the test code.
This is an issue that is indistinguishable from my identified problem of infinite regression. How are you going to test the testers to make sure they are testing what needs to be tested the way it needs to be tested?
Ultimately its do the right things correctly. What that is is much more dependent upon the problem and its context than some sacred text and holy method.
I am not a TDD zealot, nor even a TDD advocate. (I haven't written enough stuff that way to know whether it works well for me, never mind anyone else.) I was just pointing out some flaws in your reasoning. I don't think I'm the one being religious here.
I don't agree with jmathes's diagnosis that you're trolling; I'm sure you really believe that I am a fanatical TDD devotee who thinks TDD is the right thing for every situation, that I regard everything to do with it as sacred and holy, and that I think TDD can make up for lousy programmers and lousy code. Since none of that bears any resemblance to the truth, however, I'm going to leave it here, and just suggest that you go back and re-read what I said, and see whether you can find any actual evidence of zealotry there. Then, when you don't, you might want to work out what's got your zealotry detectors so oversensitive and made you draw such stupid conclusions, and maybe think about fixing whatever it is.
I think your troll detectors are miscalibrated, though not as badly as lgriffith's zealot detectors. But I think you're right that there's not much point in trying to carry on a reasoned discussion with him on this topic. Sorry, all.
The basic premises cannot be questioned. The words of the sacred order must be followed to the letter. They must be swallowed whole without modification. They are to be held to be applicable to all problems, all contexts, forever, amen. That is except when they don't apply according to some mysterious unwritten set of rules held by the sacred order.
Gad. I can't count the times I have seen this crap since I started developing software back in the mid 1960'sd. It started with designing software using an IBM flow chart template. Each "method" had their very narrow range of applicability. None were the cure all or ultimate solution they were touted to be.
Automated testing has a place. The place is small, narrow, and limited. I seriously question that it can make up for lousy programmers and lousy code. Especially since they are also usually the programmers of the test code.
This is an issue that is indistinguishable from my identified problem of infinite regression. How are you going to test the testers to make sure they are testing what needs to be tested the way it needs to be tested?
Ultimately its do the right things correctly. What that is is much more dependent upon the problem and its context than some sacred text and holy method.