um guys, no.. I am an Icelander, and I'll have you know this: Iceland is not going to ban porn!
Ögmundur is just one guy, he does NOT represent Iceland in whole. he wrote a bill that he wanted to pass up for voting, and that bill hasn't even reached that stage yet and if it ever will, it will not pass.
also, Ögmundur is highly unpopular among Icelanders and he will not be a part of a new government after the upcoming election in spring.
I'm sure this will be successful. It's very similar to how sharing of movie and music files across the Internet is prohibited, and now no one gets movies or music without paying for them. Same thing with the War on Drugs - it's been so successful that no one takes any illegal drugs any more.
But seriously, has anyone in Iceland ever heard of a proxy?
Seems to me that this is the whole correlation and causation thing (a 'questionable cause' logical fallacy). There are probably great benefits that come from having access to the Internet. The question that needs to be answered here is whether or not having access to porn is a requirement. This has not been shown by /Slate/ in their article.
The article goes on to say that, because access to the Internet does not reduce the prevalence of homicide but does lower the prevalence of rape, having access to the Internet reduces rape.
Here are some other reasons rape might be down (just off the top of my head):
* As a society, we're getting better at catching rapists before they rape again (and before they rape the first time)
* Sex crimes are less acceptable than they were some years ago
* There is more help available for those who are prone to this type of crime
Porn is already banned in Iceland (punishable by prison!), so they're past the free speech arguments. The current discussion is about stronger enforcement. And if I understand correctly, extending criminal punishment to possessing porn, in addition to distributing or publishing it.
There's no source cited in the linked article other than The Daily Mail. For the unfamiliar, they're a British 'news outlet' who are notorious for writing articles that grossly misinterpret source data, to forward their own agenda.
(In Google translation) he says porn is already illegal in Iceland (which it is [1], punishable by prison), and he's advocating more enforcement of this, with police resources.
That a minister would like it to be law doesn't mean Iceland "may soon" adopt it, at least for any reasonable interpretation of the expression. Mr. Jonasson isn't even part of the legislative branch, and his party is only the third in the Parliament.
Just what citizens need: a the government watching everything you do! Regardless of how you feel about pornography or other "obscene" content, this kind of power will be abused. Even if Iceland, arbiters of good taste, manage to use it entirely within the given bounds, that kind of information could be pilfered and used by more malicious people. Even big tech focused companies are not immune to data theft, so why would Iceland do any better?
As the saying goes: let's collect data on how everyone in Iceland browses the web; what could possible go wrong?
While I happen to agree with you, I'm trying to make the point that even people emotionally invested in their hatred of pornography should see that this law is faulty. Even if we happened to disagree on the specifics of obscenity, this law is wrong.
The title is misleading. This isn't about to happen. One conservative legislator is making a proposal. You can probably write a headline like this for any number of crazy ideas in most countries.
Ah, I see. Looks like it's the personal position of one minister, there's nothing about widespread support for it in the populace or legislature. Nothing to see here, I guess.
Even if Jonasson's claims are checked out by evidence, nannying a country's population by censoring offensive material is not the right course of action. You do not change public perception or progress society through censorship.
The internet is a new phenomena that has given individuals unprecedented power to indulge in all forms of media. Instead of arbitrarily obstructing information that they deem to be corrupting, the Icelandic government should recommend their citizens to learn the psychology behind desire and addiction [1], perhaps even Stoic philosophy [2], and how to set up a web filter for their children. They should trust that the adults of their country are generally smart enough to think for themselves and do the right thing; anything less is an insult to their intelligence and is likely to foster a mistrust of their government.
I really like social experimentation (to a sane degree, of course). Why shouldn't Iceland ban pornography (if it does so through a democratic process)? I'd quite like to see what happens.
Iceland shouldn't ban pornography because that is forcing someone's personal value upon a whole country based on questionable reasoning. "[Ogmundur Jonasson] argues that easy access to online porn increases the frequency and severity of sexual violence against women and causes longterm damage for children who view it at an early age." As another commenter mentioned, there is more evidence that porn reduces sexual violence, and it is easy and free to set up a porn filter for children.
I am not arguing that porn is a good thing, but that it's not a government's job to force their subjective moral values upon people by telling them what information they are not allowed to see.
If Iceland's parliament were in fact "forcing someone's personal value upon a whole country", then I would also consider it to be morally wrong. However, the democratic process is there to guard against this sort of behaviour. It doesn't always work, but you haven't shown that it is not working in this case.
I believe you are referring to the reference (haha) to the article in /Slate/. I read that article and didn't find it hugely compelling. Some good points were made in the article, but they weren't even close to a complete argument.
Again, I agree that 'it's not a government's job to force their subjective moral values upon people'. Firstly, when it comes to morality, it's pretty much all subjective. (I actually believe that there is an objective morality; it's just really hard to convince anyone else that my morality is it.) It is, however, a government's job to enforce the morality of the people.
Just because bad things happen in countries where pornography is banned doesn't mean they happen because pornography is banned.
I believe you are saying that banning pornography is an indicator of a bad government and the other governments that have made the same decision are a pretty bad lot. This may be true.
But my point remains: it is a government's job to enforce the values of society. It just depends what we see as our most important values (is it free speech or moral decency, in this case?).
If it's voted on, go for it. It is bad for women IMO. Treats them as objects for the most part. Plum, men then get depressed because they expect life to be like a porno.
What about porn made by women?[1] What about the millions of women who like and enjoy porn?
"Sorry darling, you can't do that, but it's for your own good!"
What we need isn't paternalistic censorship. If mainstream porn is bad - and I certainly agree it is - we need better porn, and more openness discussing it.
Japan has half the reported rape incidence of Singapore, and does not attempt to censor porn. Let's consider other factors before endorsing the methods of repressively religious police states.
Kind of ironic that Iceland is on one hand being held up as the freedom/free speech haven of the world, and on the other hand they want to ban porn. I suspect this is just one whacko politician, not the mainstream, though -- most of the Icelandic people I know are fairly pro porn :)
It can make you more sad. Sometimes, I'll see something that's just, "Damn...wow!" and that can make me happy. I still tire of it in about a few weeks, though. Mostly, it just helps make me not-horny for a little while.
Of course not. That's why societies have things like police and prisons. Making it illegal is, of course, about reducing its prevalence, but it's also about society saying, 'these are our standards'. One will never stop all men from beating their wives, but I would not care to live in a society where it became legal.
>He argues that easy access to online porn increases the frequency and severity of sexual violence against women and causes longterm damage for children who view it at an early age.
Does he actually argue that, or does he just claim that? Wouldn't an argument come with some sort of evidence?
Technically he could be forming a logical argument with only his personal opinion as backing axiom. It wouldn't be a good argument, but it would technically be an argument.
Not that this really matters. Evidence or "GTFO". Even then though that doesn't mean it is a valid plan. I could have all the evidence in the world that sending all men and women to separate prison camps would reduce domestic abuse, but that does not mean such a proposal, correct as it may be, is acceptable. I get that Iceland is their own country with their own laws and standards, but to my American sensibilities this seems to be clearly crossing the line.
In other words, you can form a real argument with undisputed facts, but even that is not sufficient.
>Does he actually argue that, or does he just claim that? Wouldn't an argument come with some sort of evidence?
A society's standards, including moral standards, are not something that has to pass "evidence".
I find it silly that we ask to justify any and all decisions and laws a society takes with some deterministic, scientific evidence.
Do the "right to freedom" needs any evidence? In fact, there's no evidence at all for that, it's just a moral guideline. Scientifically, we could do the exact opposite.
Do we need "evidence" that black people are the same as white?
Or, (in a case where evidence tells us people are not as capable as us), do we need "evidence" to not treat the physically/mentally ill as inferior?
Do we need evidence that rape is traumatic? And what kind of evidence should that be? Maybe we should not believe it until we actually see changes in a brain scan in post-rape victims (then again, why assume those changes should be for the worst?). Surely trusting what they tell us is not enough -- personal feelings is no evidence.
Now, the case for "increased frequency of sexual violence" against women might, or might not, be quantified.
But the case for "longterm damage for children who view it at an early age" doesn't need to. Living as a society doesn't mean adhering as a robot to scientific notions and discoveries. It involves preferences, choices, and even risk. A society might prefer even a negative outcome, over what is considered healthier and better "scientifically" (E.g they might keep their customs re food , despite evidence that said food can be harmful or some other cusine is more nutricional. Or they might prefer to fight and die instead of collaborating with an invading army (which gives you the scientific benefit of being alive)).
However, in both cases the official made a quantitative argument, not a moral one. Some of your examples also aren't convincing: there is a lot of evidence that after controlling for socioeconomic status and other similar factors, black and white people are the same, and that rape is traumatic (rates of depression, PTSD, etc. following it). And personal feelings actually are admissible evidence, if the questions you're asking are designed correctly. The 'right to freedom' and valuing people with physical or mental disabilities are moral issues, but they are also fundamentally different from the claims the official was reported to be making.
Something like 'longterm damage' is something that can be quantified and measured (correlation, at least). There are a variety of psychological examinations (such as those for trauma, underlying biases, etc.) that you could use to see if early (or earlier) self reported access to pornography in fact correlates to different mental/emotional states later in life. At that point you have quantified changes and can point to them and argue societal values.
The moral argument would be "Children should not be exposed to pornography simply because it is not suitable for people under (age)", not positing things about potential, unquantified 'longterm damage'. We can argue all day about the morals and societal expectations, and it's perfectly reasonable to do so with regards to pornography, but if someone makes a quantifiable argument, they should provide evidence to back it up, or a compelling reason as to why evidence isn't available and why acting without it is still important. (Such as how long it might take to get the evidence, or why it isn't possible to, or why there is a dire and immediate need to act before evidence can be gathered.)
If "easy access to online porn increases the frequency and severity of sexual violence against women" is a "moral standard" that doesn't require evidence rather than a claim of fact that does, then coldtea's access to the internet through throwaway accounts is contributing to the intellectual decline of the Western world. Also, mice are born from a peculiar mix of sawdust and wet hay.
>then coldtea's access to the internet through throwaway accounts is contributing to the intellectual decline of the Western world.
The Western world was never that intellectual to begin with. Western civilisation? Now, that would be a good idea, as Ghandi said.
Plus, the thinkers from the West (and the non-yet-West, Ancient Greece and Rome) that mattered to the so-called "Westend Civilisation" once, weren't hell bent on "evidence" at all.
Modern western civilisation is merely pop culture with some engineering thrown in.
That said, I surely agree that my access to the internet is "contributing to an intellectual decline", if not the internet's then surely mine.
Speaking of "intellectual decline", noticed how your example, e.g about how "mice are born from a peculiar mix of sawdust and wet hay" is NOT an example of a societal standard, whereas I only argued for those?
I'm sure you sidestepped it, as easily as you sidestepped the very part of my comment where I say that "easy access to online porn increases the frequency and severity of sexual violence against women" _could_ be objectively quantified.
I apologize, I didn't make it to the end if your comment. 'Porn causes long term damage to children' is a moral question only if "damage" means 'exposes them to things that I morally object to but don't feel I have to justify.'
For example, I think that exposure to black people and the concept of treating the physically/mentally ill damages children. Should I have to justify that?
>is a moral question only if "damage" means 'exposes them to things that I morally object to but don't feel I have to justify. (...) For example, I think that exposure to black people and the concept of treating the physically/mentally ill damages children. Should I have to justify that?
No. You are entitled to believe it as a person. But you would have to convince your society about it, if you don't want to be seen with contempt, or if you want that to also have wider appeal.
Notice, though, how you picked a negative example. How about an example that tries (using the same logic) to justify something you already consider bad?
E.g. The same can be said for "racist remarks" or "rape".
One could argue that there is no damage in rape, especially if the victim was drugged and not aware of it happening. Would we be willing to accept that?
How about taking advantage of people to get ahead, including lying et al when you can get away with it? Why would that be wrong "scientifically"? On the contrary, in a game theoretic way it would be totally advantageous for the individual doing it.
At final analysis, morals are things that we don't have to justify scientifically. We might abandon them, or change them, or justify them with regard to other morals and rhetoric, and we might even use some scientific information in the process, but morals are not a subject for scientific assessment.
The Western world was never that intellectual to begin with.
This statement doesn't make any sense.
Speaking of "intellectual decline", noticed how your example, e.g about how "mice are born from a peculiar mix of sawdust and wet hay" is NOT an example of a societal standard, whereas I only argued for those?
How have you determined that your examples are actually societal standards?
I say that "easy access to online porn increases the frequency and severity of sexual violence against women" _could_ be objectively quantified.
Nobody disagrees with that. But one has to actually quantify such frequency and severity in order to use it in an honest argument, not just claim it could be.
>The Western world was never that intellectual to begin with.
This statement doesn't make any sense.
In what way doesn't it "make sense", because it is trivially parseable in several ways. One is that the Western world is not that self-reflective and meditative upon the meaning of history and life, and substitutes "expert knowledge" and "action" for those.
>How have you determined that your examples are actually societal standards?
By living in a society. Any look at a book of sociology or anthropology 101 will inform you that stances towards sex and violence are always part of societal standards.
"The Western world was never that intellectual to begin with."
Can you elaborate on that please? What time period are you referring to? Which civilizations were more intellectual in your view and how do you quantify it?
I find the ancient civilisations, and especially Greece, to be more intellectual, in that the very idea of society, laws, progress etc is under scrutiny and question in a self-reflective way. But even Europe itself was far more intellectual until around the early 20th century.
E.g Compare the top social discourse of early 20th century Vienna or 19th century Paris with today's NYT best-seller list or political pundits. Or compare ancient greek tragedy (which was at the time mass entertainment) to present day mass entertainment (that would be, blockbuster movies at worst and something like Black Swan or Godfather at its best).
From that time on, the emergence of a mass culture (which killed a less extensive but higher quality upper-middle class culture), the prevalence of market values and the blind respect of "experts" (and "progress" as a non-testable goal in itself) killed the intellectual traits I describe above.
You should read Sam Harris's "The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values" if you haven't already.
He writes convincingly (for me anyway) that moral discussions need not be arbitrary or driven by "gut instinct." Instead he proposes that a scientific approach to morality indeed would make us more moral.
I am not dismissing Sam Harris' book out of hand (as I haven't read it), but I would be surprised to find his argument that "a scientific approach to morality would make us more moral" convincing. In order for Harris to show that his approach is more moral and to avoid a circular argument, he must have a definition of "moral" that can be proven without science.
>A society's standards, including moral standards, are not something that has to pass "evidence".
What are you talking about? He is making specific, factual claims, which I quoted. He is not saying "we should do this for moral reasons", he is saying "we need to do this because porn causes violence". There is no evidence that the claim he is using for justification is accurate. Yes, factual claims 'have to pass "evidence"', you don't get to just make shit up to push your personal beliefs on people.
Please take a little more time and care when reading people's posts before you respond to them. When your response is a long tangent based on ignoring the fundamental point of the post you respond to, it doesn't lead to constructive discussion.
>What are you talking about? He is making specific, factual claims, which I quoted.
Sure, and if you read my reply carefully, you'll see that I say that the first is a factual claim that could be verified quantitatively.
But the second ("it is bad for children") is not. To know what is bad for children you should also know how a society wants it's children to be and to grow up to, which is not something scientific.
So, you are saying that you fully understand that your post is irrelevant with regards to the post it is formatted as a reply to, and you posted it anyways? Feel free to post your opinions on their own in the future, rather than as non-sequitur replies.
>So, you are saying that you fully understand that your post is irrelevant with regards to the post it is formatted as a reply to, and you posted it anyways?
How do you got to the outrageous conclusion that "my post is irrelevant with regards to the post it is formatted as a reply to"?
What part of my comment above, to which you respond, makes it difficult to you to understand that I agreed with his first example but took issue with his second one?
I state my case, that I agree with his first example but not the second in both my original reply and the short comment you responded to. I explicitly write that I disagree with the second example (even use the very words "second example").
It takes a dismal reading comprehension to accuse me of what you did.
Edvin Dunaway 22 minutes ago
um guys, no.. I am an Icelander, and I'll have you know this: Iceland is not going to ban porn!
Ögmundur is just one guy, he does NOT represent Iceland in whole. he wrote a bill that he wanted to pass up for voting, and that bill hasn't even reached that stage yet and if it ever will, it will not pass.
also, Ögmundur is highly unpopular among Icelanders and he will not be a part of a new government after the upcoming election in spring.