this, unicode and exceptions are IMHO good enough to start thinking about upgrading. you might say that pip is a non-issue because everybody who develops in python has it installed anyway, but in windows world deploying python apps has always been a pain (yes, i use py2exe, it's not perfect).

No, the Pip issue is huge

This makes a proper P3 Virtualenv into something good (from something barely ok in 3.3 where you need to install setuptools manually in your virtualenv)

Surely you could just install Python3 and pip systemwide, then ask virtualenv/virtualenvwrapper to use that one?

    virtualenv -p $(which python3) ENV                            # with virtualenv
    mkvirtualenv [-a project path] -p $(which python3) ENVNAME    # with virtualenvwrapper

Did you actually try that? No, it doesn't work

Python 3 comes with pyvenv that's the one that should be used

How does it break? I've always used virtualenv -p /path/to/python3 and it seems to work fine.

Just tried this with virtualenv and pyvenv-3.4 and they don't produce identical results.

The good thing about 3.4 is that they finally give a good virtualenv by default and we don't need to install setuptools/pip inside manually

pyvenv in Python 3.3 was immensely frustrating to use, because it leaves you without any package manager that understands your virtualenv.

I've seen this rumor that virtualenv "doesn't work" in Python 3. It seems to be propagated by people who make Python 2 virtualenvs and get confused, including a StackOverflow thread full of people basically typing commands at random to try to fix the problem. But pyvenv in 3.3 had much more potential for confusion.

The fact that Python 3.4 bundles pip may finally resolve this confusion, and make pyvenv appropriate to use. But I'm sure virtualenv will keep working fine as well as long as you don't mix up major versions of Python.

Exactly

Yes, the regular virtualenv may work with Python 3 but it's a small detail in a frustrating setup. When I finally found out how you're supposed to do in > 3.4 it was a relief, still

Just tested 3.4 as it is like in 2.X, so, problem solved and no-one has to worry about this anymore.

Did you?

That works perfectly if you already have python3 installed.

Having pip and venv bundled with the standard distribution is convenient.

Yeah, I'm hoping this will make it easier for people to upgrade to python 3.

Doesnt including those in distribution slows the pace at which they'll be developed and released?

I don't want pip and virtualenv to be constantly changing and evolving. We finally reached a stage where they're usable reliably. Some stability wouldn't hurt.

It's just bundled, meaning it's still developed externally. In fact, 3.4.1 will include a newer pip version.

Assuming we've released a newer version of pip when 3.4.1 is released :)

Is pip actually included by default, or just an installer for pip?

Both kind of!

Added to the stdlib was "ensurepip", which is a simple installer for pip. The ensurepip module includes inside of it a copy of pip that it will install from (in other words, ensurepip doesn't hit the network).

There are various reasons why it does this, part of which is to enable easy upgrades to newer versions of pip both inside of CPython itself, and for the end user to upgrade it locally.